So far it seems that this blog is off to an amazing start and has gone better than my efforts could make it. This seems to be the case with things that God calls us to. I wanted to thank all the readers and commenters. You all have had wonderful insights and additions to this blog and I encourage you to keep them coming.
The next step I would like to take is to invite any post-Questers to post their comments here about their experiences with Quest. As you have gathered from the nature of this blog this is not a place for unchecked anger or cutting remarks towards Quest or Questers. So please, only positive comments. It is the only way for people who are stuck in Quest to see that post-Questers don’t just live angry vindictive lives.
Furthermore, I would like to invite anyone who has heard of Quest or currently goes to Quest to post on here. This is the beauty of the blog. It can be entirely anonymous if you’d like it to be. There will be no penalty for asking questions about anything you see discussed here. None of your leaders will know and don’t need to know. Even I won’t know. I encourage you to ask questions about leadership, serving, and anything else you have been even slightly curious about but could not ask in the Quest environment.
As for my identity, it remains a superfluous detail amidst the truth that God is revealing. In the meantime you may call me Theophilus. It is a name that describes all of us as it Greek for “one loved by God.” I would also encourage you to spread the word about this blog, but feel free not to. You might just need to sit back and enjoy the discussion. Again, my email is thetruthaboutquest@gmail.com . Feel free to email it anytime or post a comment on the blog. In the words of one of our commenters “let the truth ring out.”
I would like to underscore our moderator's prodding to ask questions. Questions themselves are not sinful. In the Quest culture it can sometimes feel like betrayal (against the church and subsequently God) or that you are going down a road that makes you spiritually "off." God is not offended by our questions...and often open discourse leads to truth. Light dispels darkness.
ReplyDeleteIt is important, however, that as you ask questions that you are going to the source of truth and light. Study the scriptures; spend time with Jesus; listen to the Holy Spirit. Our Father longs to give us perspective and to bring light to the shadowy places. You really can't go wrong if you are keeping your eyes fixed on Jesus in this process.
Pete recently wrote about the "gift of exposure" in one of his blogs. This is one of the things that would often get talked about at Quest so that you would readily respond to anything that leaders in your life would point out in you. Sometimes those things would be helpful- their words could lead you into a deeper relationship with Jesus. Sometimes, those words could be misused- a way to make you more useful to the building of the church (Quest) but harmful in how they affected your intimacy with Jesus and your own ability to hear from the Holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteI hope that this blog can become the "gift of exposure" to all of the leaders at Quest. I hope that it helps leaders (specifically upper level leaders) there who have no one really in their lives to question them or to point out sin in them to begin to examine things in themselves and in the church that need to be brought into the light and corrected.
To quote Pete: "So will you accept the gift of exposure and respond in a teachable, shapable, moldable way? Or will you keep pretending, defending and making excuses? It’s your choice."
I hope they choose well.
Absolutely astonishing! Thanks for the last comment. I agree. I hope they choose well, for their sake and their families.
ReplyDelete-Theophilus-
Many times people in the Accelerate leadership training program talk with their 'Timothies' (apprentice leaders) that they should not talk with family or friends who do not operate in the same spiritual stream (i.e. go to Quest) because they will be distracted from what God is showing/doing in them. As the above poster mentions they are then isolated and have no to talk to for fear that they would be saying their NO to God, which of course is silly and at the same time frightening
ReplyDeleteto the person
I can remember being a member of Quest, and going to my lifegroup leader with issues I was having. I had already prayed to Jesus and was hearing His voice in these matters...my lifegroup leader would tell me no and that I was hearing this wrong. I can remember thinking, "How do you know what I am hearing from Jesus?"
ReplyDeleteIn response to the previous two comments:
ReplyDeleteIt's really no excuse, because we are all responsible for our choices and actions, but most lifegroup leaders and other leaders at Quest are simply modeling what they have seen modeled. They are doing their best to follow Jesus...and they think that means blindly following their leaders.
Hopefully, this blog will begin to help all leaders at Quest to begin to really think about what they say and how they lead. There should be a biblical basis for all of it (and hearing it from the teachings of your lead pastor or other teachers does not constitute a "biblical basis.") All teaching should be tested against the truth of scripture (and not simply one verse, but against the whole of scripture in a contextual way.)
1st off, I am a quester. I have attended Quest church for just over 4 years. I have served, and led to some exent. Here is what I don't understand. I question my leaders all the time! I have never once been told to go away or that I'm a bother to them. I have never had my faith called into question when I call my leaders into question. It troubles me that several people have started voicing these things on different forums. Not because it calls Quest into accountability, but because they spout off about it with no eveidence to support their statements. Just broad stroke accusations. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but the in the church, like work, and life in general, you have to have a spine, and feel comfortable saying no to things. I do it all the time. Yet I am still loved, accepted, and encouraged by those who lead me. I just don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI agree that we all are responsible for our own choices. Most however who have been 'under' spiritually abusive disciplers know how hard it is to make your own decisions in the face of the intensity of the relationship. One of the first things to be compromised as you submit to discipler is exercise of free will, which is labled as rebelious or worse disunifying. The continuation of the relationship with discipler, lifegroup or church is contingent upon the submission to the leader. You begin to see your own instincts as inherantly sinful.
ReplyDeleteThe paradox of this is of course we are inheriantly sinful, but some of self-preservation instincts are there to prevent us from being manipulated. Healthy churches are not interested in submission to leadership in these ways.
In fact after having left Quest, pastoral staff at other vibrant healthy churches were puzzeled or alarmed at what had become normal followership in my book. These leaders have to a person made it quite clear they believe the only one worthy of such followership is Jesus.
All that to say I don't think we should discount the role of pressure and the fear of being shunned when it comes to surrendering of will. That is the final fall back for the discipler 'well they wanted to climb a little higher etc'.
Controlling discipleship is so ingrained that resistance on the part of the follower is seen as threatening and must be immediately dealt with. Though this seems hard to believe to an outsider, it is normal to the discipler who is actually a victim of disception themselves.
Quester, I am glad you brought this up. Most of the "accusations" might seem broad stroke for the purpose of not making private hurts public. Calling out specific people for specific hurts on this blog would be a misuse. Those are the types of things that can be handled via Matthew 18 type conversations as you are familiar with.
ReplyDeleteAlso, not everyone has this experience with Quest. It seems you are one of the lucky ones who does not have a forceful leader. There are pockets within Quest that do not conform to the characteristics that this blog deals with and I am glad for that. I commend you for sticking to the Bible and encourage you to encourage other Questers to be aware of these kinds of things. It can be very easy in the environment of Quest to fall into over-serving letting leadership control your life. And thanks for posting. We're all on the same team here. One God. One Christ. One Church.
-Theophilus
To the previous poster from Quest...
ReplyDeleteI agree with the others...I'm glad you haven't had that type of experience!!! And, at the same time, I have to admit that you don't come across that until you decide you want to pursue "leadership" within the community and want to pursue being on the "inside".
Also, you may not experience this unless your serving on roles that are directly associated to the weekend production. I've seen it with my own family and friends.
Everything is beautiful for awhile...you can say "no" at the beginning if someone calls you on a weekend, you can spend time with your family, you can even miss a weekend to go on vacation!! However, once you decide you want to dive in on a "Deeper" level after attending something like leadership retreat, they start holding you to "a higher accountability."
I've seen people in tears because at the end of a 50 hour work week, they were guilted into serving another 20 hours during the weekend! They get a last minute call saying "hey..we need you..." And what happens? People reluctantly say yes...Not because Jesus wanted them to! but because doing otherwise would make them "un-entrustable" or they might not get the next "entrustment" someone would like to give them.
Again...I'm SO glad you haven't experienced this! I praise Jesus that you have leaders that will allow you to ask questions of them and even say no at times without a wave of guilt being forced over you...
however, understand that for many of us, that was not the case...
Theo-
ReplyDeleteI don't think of myself as lucky in that sense. I have had some pretty intense leaders, and still do. I was a Timothy in the accelerate program, and right now I am on a highly visible team where I could possibly have influence, good or bad, over a lot of people. But a good friend of mine told me something early on in my days at Quest... that "saying no is not a sin." If Quest was so concerned about blind followership, I highly doubt they would let me have the position and influence that I have. I am anything but a blind follower... Like I previously posted, I question my leaders all the time.
Once, my leaders realized that I do pray about things before I bring it to them (that is always the 1st question they ask), they realize that their input is just that... input, but Jesus leadership has the final say.
On the good side of things... Jesus is doing amazing things in that place. He rescued me from a very dark place 4 years ago, and several people I care very deeply for, have since some to know real life and freedom there. I am very grateful for the sacrifices of others who gave me place to find hope and freedom in Christ. In return, I don't think it is too much for me to sacrifice so that others could know the same. Sacrifice has the power to stretch and grow faith... That being said, not all stretches are good stretches, and I have had to stand my ground when I thought stretching for the sake of stretching was uncalled for, or a waste of time and resources. Through it all, I have never been shunned, condemned, asked to leave the body, accused of disunity, or any such thing.
One last point. Not everyone is called to the same level of sacrifice as the next person. Some are called to be leaders, others are not. Some are called to give more than others. Jesus prompts that call. There have been times that senior leaders have come to me with a next level entrustment, asked me to pray about it... and after a time, I didn't hear Jesus in it, and told them so. Again, in love, my answer was accepted, and that was that.
Is Quest perfect? No, absolutely not. Do some people get too over zealous with their involvement, and leadership issues? Yes, sometimes that happens, and it is unfortunate. The church is made up of people who at their core are flawed, and prone to sin. But I have no doubt that those same people love Jesus wholeheartedly!
You stated in your reply to me above, that "we are on the same team. One God, One Christ. One Church." Please be careful with His bride... The world is watching.
It joys my heart to hear of fellow Christ follower’s who challenge the religious status quo in order to pursue Christ’s heart harder and more passionately. To the poster who currently attends Quest, again we are so glad to hear that your experience has not been one that has caused you hurt and pain. We pray that this continues to be your experience and that the Lord shields you and protects you. I agree that there are leaders and good people at Quest who would say that “saying no is not a sin”. Unfortunately for many of us on this blog, we are healing from abusive disciplers who allowed us to say no, but at the cost of feeling guilt and shame as if we had let Christ down or worse...that in saying no we were directly responsible for someone missing their chance to come to Christ. While you may not have experienced the pain spoken about in this blog, many have...possibly your friends or family...and this blog is for them to find healing, freedom and hope from lies that have been spoken to them or over them. This is a common ground, a safe place, for those who are searching for answers to long standing disillusionment.
ReplyDeleteI am not doubting that God does miracles at Quest. My own sister, lost and confused for many years, gave her life to Christ within its walls. And no misleading by leaders or not can change or discredit that. Unfortunately, harm is also being done at this church that must be brought to light so that those caught in struggle of truth and deception can find healing.
You are correct not everyone is called to the same level of sacrifice. I truly wish this was being expressed at Quest. Instead, what may be confused as this being taught, is the creation of a leadership caste which distinguishes individuals by their “entrustability”. Having served and knowing countless others who serve/ed (including those with families and children), I saw first hand how people were asked to serve merely to fit needs and not necessarily because it was being asked of them by the Lord. Often the guilt of saying “No” was too much for reasons mentioned previously and this became a dangerous cycle.
I am aware that God will send those who are in search of healing and truth to this blog (if that means the whole world is watching this single blog, then I hope the same healing for all of them to.) When you are truly seeking the face of Jesus, open to criticism from others, and humbly listening for His voice there is nothing to fear. God commands us to be strong and courageous in the things He calls us to for He will be with us wherever we go...even the world wide web=) (Joshua 1:9). Christ’s bride (The Church) should be well tended without fear.
I hope this helps you understand the purpose of this blog. We are certainly not here to attack individuals. (As mentioned in a previous post, that is why broad instances are used instead of calling out specific leaders or events.) We are here to speak truth where confusion and falsities may exists. Most of all….we are here to help others find healing and hope--the same mission that we are sure the leaders of Quest would desire us to have. Please pray for those who have been hurt and offer understanding while they search for the answers they need to worship and serve more freely in their hearts. Allow room for their questions and their hearts that are crying for answers. Spread the good news, and remember we are on the same team.
Dear Quester,
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone is questioning that there is good happening at Quest or that Questers love Jesus. I believe that there are many faithful followers of Jesus in that place. You sound like one of them. :)
However, what this blog represents are very real people-many of whom have been in positions of leadership where they have seen some things that have gone off in the teachings there. When these things were brought up as questions, those people were shut down and the questions were never answered or dealt with. This blog is an attempt to bring about healthy change. We have tried other ways to bring about this change...more direct ways...and they didn't work. We love the people at Quest...and I think all of us wish that things could have been different.
My challenge to you is this: serve Jesus with your whole heart. Listen closely to the Holy Spirit. Examine the scriptures and test what you are taught against the truth that you find there. And when you see something that isn't in alignment with that truth, don't be afraid to speak out. Just as saying no isn't a sin, neither is questioning those who are leading you.
Quest is becoming more and more visible in the community. The world (at least Lexington) is watching. Integrity in all things really matters.
Praying for you...and for all those that I love.
Your co-laborer in Christ
I, too, served on a highly visible team several years ago. I had become progressively more involved and active on a team that was actually my area of expertise. Increasingly I saw things that I had done questioned, changed and redone because one leader in particular wanted something different. This leader knew nothing about the field and was changing things to make them awful and incorrect.
ReplyDeleteWhen I confronted this leader I was given a spiritual tongue lashing about being led and had my relationship with Christ questioned. Still, I labored on, believing in Quest.
A few months later I got a call at home late on a weeknight. Something needed redone again because the leader didn't like the original way it was done. In this case, without revealing too many details, I was really the only one who could fix it. When I said no the middle leader who was calling me was silent and in total shock. She asked again, practically begging, and saying that the leader would be furious with her if she couldn't get it done. I held my ground. It was late, I had kids to care for, I had work to do around my house, etc. She started crying. Eventually I broke down and did it anyway.
Ohhh the stories. It took me another two years to get out of that place.
I just became aware of this blog through a person in my life that struggles to embrase community in any local body after giving their life to Christ two years ago. It appears the cause is because they are still doing life pretty isolated and most of their community are non believers so it's tough. Reading what I have here, just breaks my heart that they have been aware of this for some long, that there are such deep wounds that appear so much like unresolved Matthew 18's and that now the lost world has this to look at as both sides of this discussing seeming to be from people very in love with Jesus. Peeps, something has gone off track somewhere and I just pray that the ones at the source of all this pain, is surely aware that it's there. SURELY Matt 18's were attemtped on your way "out of that place", were they not? Amazed, Astonished and Absolutely heart broken.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone had truly been interested in talking I think many of the former leaders who were tasked with leading the church would still be there. Most of the key leaders who have commented were 'handled' by staff members. For me personally the only thing approaching a Matt 18 was a conversation which basically went 'do you have anything negative you are going to be saying about Quest'.
ReplyDeleteI am so happy to have found this blog and to see that there are others who have been called away from Quest, who have been hurt, confused, etc. but can still have joy in their relationship with Christ. As to the question of whether or not Matthew 18s occured "on your way out"- for me personally these did nothing. Because the people in question (always a leader of some sort) saw nothing wrong with what they were doing, talks got nowhere, including when elders were called in. When I confronted someone or questioned leadership, I was met with love, yes, but it felt like a pitying love. I have been repeatedly told that leaders will pray for me in my rebelliousness, my inability to trust Jesus, etc. simply because I was not following what people told me. It's extremely frustrating to attempt a Matthew 18 and have someone tell you they have done nothing wrong and that they think you are believing lies from the enemy.
ReplyDeleteThis is directed at the Nov, 20 2009 post above.
ReplyDeleteIf Quest is so concerned with doing life together in Community then why do they reject people and manipulate them? I don't think this is the type of community Jesus had in mind.
This is my Quest story - Part 1
ReplyDeleteBefore I begin, let me say that my experience at Quest had some wonderful moments. In many ways my faith was strengthened through gaining a greater understanding of where I stood in my relationship with Christ, further comprehending the concept of grace and discovering the beginning of the path towards freedom in Christ. For these reasons, Quest and the friends I made there will always hold a special place in my heart.
I came to Quest in 2005. I had received a flyer in the mail and it looked very intriguing, contemporary and relevant. I had not been actively going to church anywhere in Lexington for over 2 years. I had been alone and longing for a connection to others since my divorce several years before. My first visit to Quest was when they were at Dennis Drive. People seemed friendly, but somewhat pre-occupied and not overly interested in my presence. Of course, I was very timid about going up to people at the time due to my lack self-confidence at the time - so take this with a grain of salt. I LOVED the energy, music and excitement of what was going on there, but by my third visit I was considering not coming back because hardly anyone had spoken to me. One of the first people to really engage me in conversation was Helen Musik. Because of that interaction I decided to come back the following Sunday. Soon I joined a lifegroup and I was on my way to being connected with other believers.
I was developing good friendships in my men's lifegroup, but I always noticed there was a certain Quest "dialogue" and a certain way of praying and even a certain voice inflection that many of the guys had that was a bit unnerving. I looked past that, though and saw people for what I thought was their intent - to encourage others in their walk with Christ.
After 6 months I decided to make the leap and get involved with the music team. I really felt that's where God had gifted me and where I could be used the most. But before I joined, I had lunch with one of the leaders. Before we even talked one bit about serving on the music team, I was asked about my faith. It was a question that needed to be asked, in retrospect, as I was in desperate need of spiritual encouragement at the time. However, he began to read a list of things that Pete Hise had put together that were signs of whether you truly had a relationship with Jesus. My first response was almost defensive. But then I started to wonder... Did I really understand what I was doing when I prayed with my Dad as a 6 year old to accept Christ? After my meeting I really wrestled with this. I even spoke to my parents about it. They seemed very surprised that I was even questioning my salvation. But my Dad lovingly told me "Son, if there's any doubt about your salvation, we can pray right now". I told him I wasn't sure. A few days later, I called the leader and asked for some scripture to back up Pete's list. He was kind enough to put that together and e-mail it to me.
This is my Quest Story - Part 2
ReplyDeleteAfter struggling with this issue for about a week, I approached the leader after a service and told him I wasn't sure about my salvation. Immediately I was surrounded by people. Some I knew, others I didn't have a clue who they were. It was very surreal, and honestly a bit intimidating. But I knew I needed to be sure and I knew I needed a change in my life and relationship with Jesus. While I felt that a spiritual encounter occurred, I felt that the words I was repeating were not completely my own. I felt like I wanted to say my own words, but was encouraged to repeat his words.
It was on this one issue/event that I eventually had the greatest problem with Quest... On one hand I believe I grew closer to Christ as a result of this event. On the other I began to notice a trend all around me: Person after person who had been "raised in a Christian home" and "thought they had a relationship with Christ" suddenly came to the realization that they weren't saved. I often heard leadership say to these people - "You just went from death to life". Regrettably, I also saw the NUMBER of these people that went "from death to life" repeatedly used as a marketing tool from the pulpit. It began to feel like it was a subtle way of glorifying Quest instead of Christ.
After several months, I started to get a sick feeling in my stomach that I had been mislead, maybe even manipulated. I felt embarrassed, maybe even a little angry - and with every "thought I was a Christian" conversion, sometimes even from people in LEADERSHIP Positions!!!, I started to question what was really going on. Of course, I saw people who clearly needed Christ accept him as savior and this was always a wonderful moment, but I couldn't help but think that we were leading this baby Christian down the wrong path. How long would it be before this baby Christian would be standing in front of the audience again and stating "I thought I was a Christian, but..."?
The other thing I noticed was that once people "found Christ" at Quest, the flock of people that initially surrounded them would move on to the next visitor or person who seemed to be struggling. I would see visitors with a look of sheer panic on their faces as they were being surrounded by people that didn't even know them or try to know them. It seemed like there were too many baby Christians trying to lead others to Christ. Questers were not taking the time to REALLY LISTEN to someone's story and to get to know them before beginning to question their salvation.
The other problem I began to have over time at Quest was in the area of service within the church. All who have been to Quest and have served know that it is a very intense and time demanding experience! In many ways it's great because you all feel that you are working together for the common good, but I started noticing things that really disturbed me...
After serving on the music team for over a year I had grown tired of the time commitment (which I willingly accepted, so no one to blame but myself). It was not uncommon for me to spend, between practice at home and at quest, as well as the
This is my Quest Story - Part 3
ReplyDeleteservices nearly 30 hours a week! And from what I saw there were others that were spending nearly twice that much time - Many times at the expense of their children. One time I brought up to leadership that there should be someone in charge of limiting the time that one individual can spend serving because it could be a problem for marital and family relationships. My comments were essentially ignored. It was frequently stated on Sundays that "Sally has given sacrificially of her time to the church". At first it seemed great, but after time it began to disturb me to hear this.
I had other issues with the music team, but they were really more selfish and petty in nature, so they don't really have a place in this story. But the biggest thing for me was the complete lack of musical creativity and individualism. Week after week we had to listen to a recording and practice and perform it as close as possible to the original arrangement. I never saw songwriting encouraged or spontaneous performance which flowed with the moving of the spirit. It was always canned and very polished. Near Perfect - almost too perfect.
After a year of being on the music team I decided to leave. AND LEAVING WAS VERY, VERY HARD TO DO!! Without it being outwardly said, my decision to leave was clearly not the Lord's decision. I felt guilty for stepping down. I am embarrassed to admit this after the fact, but I basicly decided to leave Lexington altogether so that I could have an excuse for leaving!
Finally, the issue of always moving towards growth was what made me decide to look for a church elsewhere. It seemed that Pete was so pre-occupied with growth and building Quest into a great place to go to church, instead of going out into the community and meeting people where they were at. Ultimately, I landed at a church that is very focused on servant evangelism and showing people Christ's love in a practical way. We meet people where they are in life, feed them, clothe them, get to know them and when they're ready to meet Christ we happily tell them about his wonderful grace!
My prayer is that Quest as a church body and all of its members will move away from the focus on their building, their obsession on the "QCC way" of becoming a Christian and break free from the bondage of their "culture". To see that people need Christ more than they need to be entertained or wowed. That being authentic is more than dumping all your dark secrets. It's putting your own agenda aside and letting the Holy Spirit do his work!! I will always love the friends that I met at Quest and I truly hope that my story will lead to greater understanding of what "outsiders" have experienced during their time there.
Thanks for listening : ) and God bless Quest and their leadership!
Thanks for posting your story and keeping Christ's love central while telling it! You're not alone and your story means a lot for those who need to hear it.
ReplyDelete-Theo-